JeffMolander.com

Jak Čisté prodeje za použití přírůstkové Affiliate Marketing účinnost

Jeff Molander

Stačí, když si myslela, že to bylo nemožné, aby rovnováha zdravé dávky affiliate-tvořil prodej při maximalizaci růstu výnosů a vyhnout se kanibalizmus vyhledávání kampaní spolu přichází Angel ... Angel Djambazov, 2006 v Affiliate Manažer roku a marketing vedoucí nad v PopShops.com .

Poslechněte si, jak AffiliateFairPlay.com 's Kellie Stevens chaty otevřeně s Angel o nejlepší praxi on propagoval. Toto interview vám poskytne vše, co potřebujete vědět o spuštění, nastavení očekávání pro správu a pak úspěšné webové programy, affiliate marketing, které splňují náklady a značky cíle.
[96 minut]

Stáhněte si program na MP3 soubor ZDE .

Plný přepis programu se objeví níže.

[Téma hudba]

Kellie: Dobrý den, vítejte na AffiliateFairPlay Affiliate Salon Podcast Series. Toto je první z řady, že budeme dělat, kde vám přinášíme ve odborníků v průmyslu jen sedět a mluvit o různé aspekty a problémy a způsoby, které lidé mohou zlepšit své programy a zlepšení jejich příjmů i obchodníci a přidružených . To bude docela uvolněný, ale zcela tzv. spin-svobodného pásma a ne BS, vše, co zbylo na dveře a my jsme jen mluvit o skutečnosti, jak vydělat více peněz a vyšší produktivitu při uvádění na trh průmyslu affiliate .

Naše první show se bude mluvit o "Udržet jej v čistotě - dosažení vysoké ROAS prostřednictvím affiliate kanálu Integrity." Náš host dnes s námi, je Angel ... Angel a budu vám říci své příjmení, takže nemám úplně porážky.

Angel Djombozov: To je v pořádku Kellie, moje příjmení je Djombozov.

Kellie: A Angel je affiliate manager pro program Onlineshoes. Vzal si nad jejich program v říjnu roku 2005, a ve velmi krátké době se ukázalo, že program v okolí do docela dobrý úspěch pro affiliate program, kde budeme dostat do bližší informace k tomuto za minutu. Měl dokonce vzít program přes ke konci roku 2005, jedeme do 4. čtvrtletí za rok 2005. On byl zvolen jako nejlepší Zlepšené Affiliate program, ABestWeb Společenství v roce 2005, a právě minulý měsíc byl zvolen nejlepší Affiliate Manager na Affiliate summitu v Las Vegas.

Takže jsme velice rádi, že Angel s námi a má spoustu zkušeností při dosahování velmi produktivní affiliate program s vysokou integritu a produktivní, nebo to, čemu říkáme hodnotu přidali affiliate rámci tohoto programu.

Takže, děkuji vám za to, že s námi dnes, Angel.

Angel: No, díky za to, že mi na lodi, Kellie.

Kellie: Jen tak lidé budou mít trochu představu, můžete nám říci něco o tom, co Onlineshoes Program byl, jako když jste poprvé vzal to.

Angel: Když jsem poprvé přišel na palubu s Onlineshoes, program byl projet B3 a to bylo asi za několik let a byl většinou na autopilota za dané časové období. Bez vlastní affiliate manager, s pouze rudimentární transparenty v programu, aniž by stálý kontaktní místo, pokud jde o informační bulletiny ven do poboček. Samotný program byl otevřený každému, kdo chtěl vstoupit, což v podstatě znamenalo, že meziroční nárůst program byl poměrně plochý pro Onlineshoes z hlediska činnosti a v čem program sám dělal ve srovnání se zbytkem marketingové oddělení.

Kellie: A v podstatě, program, který je na auto-schválí, by byly svobodné a ...

Angel: Právo. Kompletní auto-schvaluje to znamenalo, že ...

Kellie: A to bylo skoro jen ten, kdo podepsal ...

Angel: Všichni a jejich matka byla v tomto programu. [Směje se]

Kellie: Tak, to je tak aktivní. Nábor se děje, hledá pro konkrétní typ poboček pro program, rozhodně žádný typ rozvoj nebo kreativní, nebo nástroje, nebo podobné věci.

Angel: No, a také žádný z i primitivní základy co ... prostě nikdo ani při pohledu na pobočky blíží, a vidí-li právě i obsah byl vhodný. Zapomeňte na nic víc ...

Kellie: Nebo ...

Angel: ... Rozšířené než to.

Kellie: vhodný partner pro online boty program pro sebe.

Angel: Právo, pro naše publikum.

Kellie: Přesně tak.

Angel: A tak ...

Kellie: V podstatě jste přišel a bylo to skoro nový impulz program od nuly. Vlastně v tom smyslu, někdy je to těžší pro manažera, aby chodili, pak začíná program, který je zcela neexistující a zahájení doslova od nuly. Alespoň si myslím, že někdy je to těžší pro správce, když už jdou ve a řešení s tím, co je již na místě, i když to tak nebylo podařilo pro dobrou chvíli.

Angel: No, já myslím, že jeden z aspektů, že to bylo trochu složitější, než jen spuštění programu, byla skutečnost, že jste si základní jmění příjmů, které pocházejí palců So, najednou tam byly žádosti chodit na naše grafické oddělení a na naše IT oddělení. A ne jen pár nových žádostí, ale hodně žádostí, protože mnoho budov, které stále zapotřebí, aby se stalo s programem. Takže tam jsou určitě ty rozhovory ze: "No, jsou tyto věci nutné?" "Opravdu potřebujeme vstupních stránek pro sledování všech našich různých značek, a to potřebujeme bannerů pro všechny, kdo opravdu?" A ty jednoduché druhy otázek, protože se znovu program je to, co bylo hrabání v hotovosti ...

Kellie: Protože jsme byli s příjmů, které pocházejí palců Právo, byli jsme s některými příjmy přijít za dobrou, zatímco nyní a my jsme nebyli muset provést některou z těchto prací.

Angel: Právo a určitě ...

Kellie: Jsme klepat pro, aby si tyto příjmy.

Angel: Právo, a rozhodně práce - Nečekali jsme pracovat až čtyřlůžkových spíše, pokud jde o množství prostředků, které byl kanál žádající z jiných oddělení a online boty.

Kellie: Takže, v tomto bodě se v únoru roku 2007, jaký druh růstu Neviděli jste s programem, protože jste ji převzal?

Angel: No, myslím, že je důležité si uvědomit, že jsme se pohybovat v květnu loňského roku, roku 2006, aby LinkShare. Udělali jsme si hodně due diligence, pokud jde, i když jsme byli s BeFree, pokud jde o budovy z komunikačních kanálů s pobočkami. Uvedení do procesu, jak by se měl blížit jakékoli podnikové úrovni marketing partner, pokud mluví o tom, kde tvůrčí třeba, jaké druhy kampaní jsou vhodné pro své publikum.

S těmito druhy rozhovorů, které byste s úrovní partnery podniku. A pak jsme strávili hodně času čištění kanálů, ujistěte se, a vlastně s nějakou pomoc od vás sami, jak si vzpomenete, jen čištění kanálu a ujistěte se, že partnery, že jsme pracovali, byli dobrými partnery. Tak, teď v prosinci roku 2006, jsme dosáhli 110% nárůst meziročně ve srovnání s prosincem 2005, což byl velký růst v kanálu.

Firemní byl velmi, velmi šťastný s tím. A myslím, že některé z ocenění, které jsme obdrželi od lidí z ABestWeb a od přidružené společnosti, které také druh svědčil o druhu růstu kanál viděl jak z hlediska úspěšnosti, tak z hlediska interakce s komunitou.

Kellie: Jo, a že růst jak jste řekl, je v podstatě z oživení program a získat všechny kachny v řadě a měnící se sítí, vše během stejného období.

Angel: Právo.

Kellie: Tak, to dává 110% trochu smysluplnější, než někdo, kdo vešel do programu, který již aktivní a běží a měl dobrou komunikaci s poboček, než ... Víš, nástroje a reklamy byly na místě a vy se právě na ně navazujících něco, co už tam byl a kývání a kolejových spolu docela dobře. Myslím, že je to mnohem významnější se, že procento růstu.

Angel: No, myslím, že jsem byl také štěstí v mnoha ohledech, protože často krát affiliate manažeři se nezabývají obchodníků, kteří jsou alespoň zavázaly affiliate kanál tak dát affiliate manager dostatek svobody k růstu kanálu a zdroje, alespoň přístup ke zdrojům potřebným k pomoci s některými že růst. Takže, Onlineshoes alespoň zavázala, že proces.

Pak jsem byl také hodně štěstí v tom, že si myslím, že komunita reagovala návrhy. Když jsme se zeptal: "Hej, co musíme udělat pro růst tohoto kanálu?" Byli jsme dost chytří na to poslouchat.

Kellie: Jo, myslím, že je klíč. Společenství bude vždy vám názor, když jsou požádáni o voucher o ničem ...

[Smích]

Kellie: Ale to je věc poslechu a opět poté, co management a obchodníci sami, kteří jsou ochotni se zavázat ke kanálu sám.

Angel: Právo. A myslím, že také klíčem tam taky, spolu s poslechu, je druh zapojit je do konverzací. Myslím, že častokrát, zvláště ABestWeb sám dostane pověst mají spoustu hluku a spoustu klábosení a některé relativně negativní témata. Ale na druhou stranu, pokud jste jako obchodník, mluvit s lidmi a vlastně jejich zapojení do konverzace, místo toho jako "Oh, oni jsou na mě řvát!" A pak jen utíkat. "Oh, nemohu mluvit k těm lidem. Je to příliš agresivní. "

Kellie: Tam je obvykle zrnko pravdy v hluku ...

Angel: Oh, absolutně.

Kellie: Je to věc, že se může filtr, který se, a někdy být vnímavý dost jako manažer nebo obchodník, aby řekl: "Co je to vlastně za to hluk, který tyto členy vytvářejí?" Protože tam většinou legitimní bod za ten hluk, který 're jednání ...

Angel: No, úplně. Nejen legitimní námitka, ale myslím si, že jakmile se jejich zapojení do konverzace, ale opravdu dávají hodně dobrých míst ke zlepšení vašeho programu, protože v konečném důsledku, jsou-li zajímavé pracovat s vámi, je to v jejich nejlepším zájmu vám pomohou zlepšit váš program.

Kellie: Myslím, pobočky jsou tam, aby se peníze sami.

Angel: Dobře, dobře. Pokud budete poslouchat, budou vám, že rady, a zvláště pokud jejich zapojení do konverzace. Tak zjistíte, jestli jdete na našem fóru Onlineshoes na ABestWeb a dívat se, najdete několik zajímavých závity na soustružení negativní nit kolem pozitivní vlákno, jen tím, že prostě zapojit se do konverzace a neutíkám z dialogu, který je tam. Protože, opravdu, je třeba, aby dialog s cílem pomoci růstu kanál.

Kellie: Když jste chodili do programu, který se rozhodně musí zlepšit, na ..., které bych si představit, že je jeden z důvodů, že Onlineshoes najal si začít s ... pak samozřejmě to bude negativní komentáře. Myslím, že jste šel do toho programu s vědomím, že bylo hodně práce, je třeba udělat.

Angel: Ach jo. [Směje se]

Kellie: Pokud půjdete do poboček a říct: "Hele, co musíme zlepšit?" Budete brát připomínky, které by mohly být vnímány jako negativní, protože pokud by bylo všechno broučku-Dory, pak by neměl program, které potřebovaly zlepšit po začít.

Angel: Jistě. Tam bylo hodně jednoduché věci, jako: "Hej, ty velký hlupák, když si aktualizovat své kreativní [smích], aby ji učinil významný na to, co se děje v kanálu," to "Hele, víš co: budeme post to. "[smích] Tam bylo mnoho velmi jednoduché věci, které, jakmile ji otevřete za komentář, můžete být přemýšlet o tom ty věci, ale pak si uvědomíte, jak působivých zanedbávají kanál je o tom, jak kanál dělá.

Myslím, že častokrát lidé si myslí o affiliate kanálu za rovnocenné běh vyhledávání kampaň, kde si můžete jen přihlásit, zapněte ji, push-out vaše kupony, push-out Vaše nabídky, push-out vaše kreativní, a všichni se jen tak popadnout to, a "Boom!", to bude až na svých stránkách další den, a to je vše. Stačí spustit na autopilota takhle a zkontrolujte, zda na to jednou týdně, a měla by být v pořádku. Je to fakt ne.

Je to více podobné spuštění programu MEDIA, pokud mluvíte s lidmi, a plánujete, na pravidelném základě, úspěšný segmenty. Vzhledem k tomu, aby mohly být úspěšné, musíte plánovat, když se chystáte nastavit jim volné, a zda oni jsou vhodné pro tento kanál, nebo ne.

Kellie: Jedna z věcí, které jsi zmínil, bylo, že když jste převzal, přišli jste a budete čistit dům. U některých obchodníků, kteří se, možná, jsou nové odvětví, nebo manažeři, kteří jsou na tomto odvětví, co myslíte tím "čištěním dům"?

Angel: No, tam bylo mnoho poboček v opět program jsme měli: Věřím, že 8.000, v té době. Takže doslovně, spousty poboček. Většina z těch, nebyli aktivní. Z těch, které byly, začnete se dívat na ně, a hned bat, tam byl první výzva-outs, které byly, jen vzhled a dojem z webu není vhodná pro naše publikum. Tam byly některé weby, které za normálních okolností, jejich tón, pokud je dospělý tón byl například jen není vhodné pro naše maloobchodní publikum, tak ty byly odstraněny.

A pak jsme začali jen na to, nějakou zpětnou vazbu o čistotě kanálu, pokud jde o některé z partnerů, které byly v programu. Jedním z velkých call-outs hned byla v době, Shop at Home Zvolit ... Jdu do toho pusťte a jejich pojmenování ... byl v kanálu a byl jeden z našich velkých poboček. To bylo v naší top 10. Najednou, CJ kopy je. To bylo předtím, než jsme měli opravdu plně začal proces.

Kellie: Když CJ vyhodili je ven, oni nebyli vyhodili z programu BeFree také byli?

Angel: Ne. Ne, nebyli.

Kellie: Nevěděl jsem, že oni byli, protože obvykle to nešel ruku v ruce.

Angel: Právo. Nebyli. I když, nakonec, oni byli vlastně postupně z ní, ale to se nestalo najednou. Takže jsme byli jen rádi, "Počkejte chvilku ..."

Kellie: "Co se to děje?"

Angel: "Možná bychom měli být znepokojen tím, že jeden z našich top 10 poboček ..."

Kellie: "Ty prostě vyhodili ty kluky ven ..."

Angel: Právo. Tak jsme začali druh dialogu na ABestWeb s fórem, a lidé začali poukazovat, "byste měli opravdu se podívat na tyto taktiky a postupy."

Kellie: Jsem si jistý, že dostal nějaké odpovědi. [Smích] Je mi to líto. Jděte do toho.

Angel: "Měli byste opravdu podívat na některé z těchto taktik a postupů, protože jsou proti svému affiliate dohod, proti sítě dohod, a zřejmě mají vliv na kanálu v různých způsobech." Takže jsme se začít dívat, a uvědomil si, že, "Hele, a to nejen tyto pobočky není čistý, pokud jde o jejich vliv na provize z ostatních poboček, ale jsou to také dopad našeho návratu na reklamu utratit, protože to ovlivňuje jiné kanály v našem marketingovém oddělení."

To bylo opravdu problematické, zejména z opět tento aspekt: "Hele, my se snažíme pěstovat v tomto programu. Jsme už s žádostí o nové zdroje. "Existuje poboček, které jsou negativně ovlivňujících náš návrat na reklamu utratit jinde, a najednou, že se stala fokusem pro nás.

Kellie: Takže jste začali při pohledu na identifikaci těch druhů poboček, kteří byli přináší provoz a prodej do vašeho programu v duchu, že některé z taktiky nebo praktiky, které "Shop at Home Select" byly pomocí.

Angel: Právo. Ve zpětném pohledu, po roce, myslím, že jedna z věcí, jsem si uvědomil, bylo, že čistota kanálu je velmi důležité, pokud jde o znalosti, kde se vaše skutečné zákazníci přicházejí. Mnoho těchto poboček byli, co bych výraz "double máčení", kde v podstatě naše klepněte na Google, například, v Google AdWords, bude vytvářet na základě stáhnout oni měli, okno na zákazníky 'počítač naše, že by zahájit, v podstatě naše stránky znovu, i když jsme měli první spuštění uvnitř Google AdWords.

V podstatě, oni byli používání našich Google AdWords, například k usnadnění jejich vlastní provizi v našem partnerském kanálu. Tak byli dostali zaplaceno na přední straně, a dostávají zaplaceno na zadní konec. Při spuštění se na to podívat v tomto druhu způsobem, jeden, co se týče, opět, ne vědět, kde se vaše skutečné zákazníky přichází z, protože samozřejmě, v tom případě, že pochází z Google a ne z toho affiliate. Číslo dva, jak by mohla počítat poté, co jako účinné jak ve vyhledávání kampaní a váš partnerský kanál, začnete se týká. Čím více jsme se zakopali do ní, tím více jsme si uvědomili, že tam byly nějaké taktiky, které jsme nemohli řešit růst.

Kellie: Pro některé lidi tam venku, kteří nemusí mít opravdu slyšel o těchto taktiky dříve, v podstatě tam jsou poboček tam venku, kteří mají softwarových aplikací, obecně nazývá Adware či uslyšíte pobočky volat parasiteware, a to je software, který je instalován v rámci různých Podmínky pro uživatele 'počítačích konec. Ve většině případů, že software se spouští z aktuální webové stránky obchodníka sám.

Takže nejsou to přináší nové zákazníky na obchodníka, to byl opět spuštěn zákazníky, které jsou již na obchodním internetových stránkách a poté v různých způsobech, že software bude pak odvolávat, že affiliate to partnerský odkaz a nastavit sledování, takže jakýkoli následný prodej dostane tagy a sledoval, jak affiliate prodej. Takže v podstatě je to jeden koncový uživatel, ale že konečný uživatel je sledována dvakrát, jednou od nicméně oni původně dostal do obchodníci místo, a to buď přímo, napsaný v roce, a to prostřednictvím obchodníka pay-k-klikněte točí, další affiliate poslal do obchodníka, a pak znovu jako obchodník affiliate Adware.

Takže rozhodně mohou mít dopad vám špatně, jak, jak jsi říkal, dvojité máčení, platíte dvakrát v určitých situacích. Ale to také může definitivně ukázat statistiky. Pokud se podíváte na některé z těchto poboček Adware, ukazují velmi dobré statistiky na obchodníka, protože jsou zaměřené na koncové uživatele, které již byly uvedeny na obchodníka webové stránky, takže často krát tam vyšší pravděpodobnost konverze se, že pro konečné uživatele, oni ' re tam již minimálně.

Některé z těchto aplikací bude skutečně cílových koncových uživatelů, když jste na obchodníka nákupní košík, takže je ještě vyšší šance na konverzi. Tak, aby mohli ukázat některé opravdu dobré čísla a jak jsi říkal, že "obchod na Home Vybrat" byl ve své top 10. Now "Obchod Doma Vybrat" má také webové stránky, a jsem si jistý, o provozu pochází z legitimně "Shop Doma" webové stránky.

Pro obchodníka, mohli byste opravdu ... je tu způsob, jak si statisticky podívat se na tato data a říct, já vím, že X procento provozu z tohoto affiliate přichází z Adware, kteří jste již naše vlastní zákazníků na našich webových stránkách, a X procento je z jejich webových stránkách, legitimní provoz?

Angel: Myslím, že je nyní pro nás. Tehdy tam opravdu Neposkytují způsob, jak legitimně definovat, že zejména proto, že z důvodu upgradů, že jsme měli v naší backend v roce 2006 a 2007, byli jsme druh čekají na ty, aktualizace v roce 2005, takže jsme nemohli segment, který se tímto způsobem . Ale to, co jsme pak stručně zpráv, myslím-li někdo, že byl ji používat, ale nebyla velká. Takže ne, neexistuje žádný způsob, jak segment to. Máte pravdu, že vědí, že tam asi byl nějaký legitimní provoz tam.

Ale nakonec zase to, co děláte jako obchodník je platíte ... affiliate kanál je v konečném důsledku nabytí kanál, platíte za získávání nových zákazníků. Když je někdo již na vašich stránkách a pak už je "vzít pryč z této zkušenosti k mít sekundární zkušenosti", a pak také skoro jako déjà vu, které ukazují na svých stránkách znovu.

To mi nejde o nového zákazníka, že zákazník je již tam. To je něco jiného, pokud se chystáte ven a ... existují legitimní důvody, proč se nesmí opustit místo, a nemusí vrátit, v těchto případech na "Shope Home Vybrat" a některých dalších hráčů, rozhodně není legitimní důvody k tomu, aby najednou tuto Deja Vu zkušenost vidět místa dvakrát.

Kellie: Právo. Ve vašich zkušeností ... Opět, jak jsem řekl, některé z těchto poboček, jsou nejlepšími výsledky ve všech velkých sítí. Jsou to top interpretů. Vím, že když původně mě kontaktoval a dal mi seznam svých top poboček, projít a pomohou určit pro vás, tam bylo docela málo, že jsem příznakem pro vás všechny, které byly nejlepšími výsledky v "top 50 aktivních poboček." Zapomněl jsem přesně, kolik jsi mi dal podívat se na to, že jsem příznakem pro vás. Jste již odstraněny některé z nich, které jste poznal sám sebe.

Angel: Právo.

Kellie: Tak určitě, byli ... To může být těžké prodej management.

Angel: No, myslím, že je těžké prodávat management, často krát.

Kellie: Víte, když jste přišel do a řeknete: "Hele, podívej, tam je dvacet nebo cokoliv procent, a tam je šest našich top deset, nebo čtyři z našich top ten, že jste ukazující příjmy-moudrý ve vašem affiliate kanál ... "říkat, to jsou partneři, že ... že to není reálná čísla, která jsme viděli.

Affiliate marketing je odměnu za výkon. Je to přináší v aktuální nového zákazníka na obchodníka, a tihle hoši opravdu neděláme to. Ale když se díváte na "to je vaše číslo pět affiliate, nebo vaše číslo tři, affiliate příjmy-moudrý," to může být těžké rozhodnutí, klikněte na tlačítko ukončit na, a říkat budu drop to. I když mám být řečeno, že budu k poklesu tohoto počtu tři provádění ...

A není to jen jeden affiliate, že to dělám s. Jak je to, že bude mít dopad na příjmy celkově na našem partnerském kanálu?

Angel: Určitě. Poslední věc, kterou každý management chce slyšet je můžete přijít do nového programu a při jeden nad a říkali: "Hele, já vím, že jsem měl růst tohoto programu, ale jdu do rána čtyři naše první desítky, nebo Pět z našich top deset poboček právě teď. Jedeme do konce naše vztahy s nimi, a trvám stále rostou kanál kdekoli. "To je těžké prodávat za jistý.

Myslím si, že hlavní věc je, jak se obchodník si uvědomit, že partnerský kanál však neběží jako nějaký izolovaný segment tam. Věci, které máte v affiliate kanálu bude mít vliv na e-mail kanálu, bude mít vliv na hledání kanál ... Takže, když se díváte na tyto dopady, pokud se podíváte na celý hospodářský podnět, že výnos z reklamy utratit, a vidí, jak Partnerský kanál ovlivňuje některé segment, to stalo se snadnější argument, když řekl: "Tak hele, podívej se ..."

Jdu vyhodit další příklad. eBates, zejména, byl obrovský partner pro nás, před čištěním, a ne ... se mi, že jsou v šedé úroveň parazitů. Myslím, že to rozhodně mnohem, mnohem horší ad situace venku.

Kellie: Vím, že pobočky nebude rád slyšet, ale tam jsou určitě horší hráči tam venku, než eBates.

Angel: Dobře, dobře. Cesta horší. Ale to bylo řečeno, to bylo velmi snadné druhu podívat na to, jak hodně provozu oni byli odesílání nás ... co se jejich celkový počet kliknutí se, jaké je jejich celkové prodeje byly ... a pak začít dělat nějaké analýzy, "OK, dobře, kolikrát dělá MoMoneymaker, která je jejich stáhnout z TopMoxie, kolikrát to má vliv na naše další kanály? Ať už je to naše placená umístění kanálů, nebo zda bude naše vyhledávání kanálů ...

Kellie: Nebo naši bezplatnou dopravu.

Angel: Jo, naše běžného silničního provozu, bezplatné dopravy z Froogle nebo odkudkoli.

Kellie: ekologické dopravy.

Angel: Právo. Víte, od Preston portálů nakupování od spodní prádlo a tak dále. Když začnete hledat a druhu dělat srovnání, "OK, dobře, pokud je to vyskakování tolikrát ..." Můžeme získat základní procento tady, a jak je ovlivňuje náš zbytek výnosu z reklamy utratit? Návratnost ad strávit v affiliate kanály začínají vypadat špatně, protože, no, je to vliv na tyto další kanály. Myslím si, že byla opravdu argument. "Hele, podívej. Ty by měly být jedno, starosti o své, jak to ovlivní další kanály.

Číslo dvě, je tu negativní asociace, zejména pokud jste obchodník, který má vztahy s dodavateli, že vám záleží. Často v naší vertikální, naši dodavatelé - víte, tím mám na mysli prodejci značek - Merrill, Puma, Timberland - opravdu péče o zákazníka zkušenosti. Pokud se domníváte, že jste jako obchodník ocenit své výrobky prostřednictvím Adware, a že Adware má negativní vztah, negativní dopad na spotřebitele, jdou na ukončení své smlouvy s vámi.

Takže to není jen otázkou toho, jak to dopad ostatních kanálů. Jistě, vy jste také starosti vztahy s dodavateli, protože to poslední, co chcete dělat, co prodejce obuvi je ztratit velké značky jako Merrill, protože jsi blázen, protože ...

Kellie: Jinak je to omyl na jejich značku.

Angel: Právo, to je omyl své značky s Adware, že jste nedopatřením, nebo úmyslně používat. Myslím si, že ostatní menší argument postižených v tomto bodě, jakmile tyto argumenty jsou navážky bylo to, že: "Hele, je nejen to ovlivňuje náš návrat na reklamu utratit tyto další kanály. Ale pokud zákazník přišel od spodní prádlo nebo od Google, nebo MIVA, nebo kdekoli, a eBates je zdiskreditovaný přinášet to, aby zákazník, pak se nějak jsme ztratili stopu v případě, že zákazníka pochází. Zvláště, víte, že v okamžiku, kdy jsme neměli pokročilejší sledování, co děláme teď, to bylo obrovské obavy, protože zcela jistě nevíme, což je právo nabytí kanálu.

Takže, myslím, že když se spojí ty tři věci, a položíte na to, že druh argumentu, je snadnější říci: "Hele, víš, já vím, to jsou těžké, a tak mnoho umělců. Ale měli bychom buď odstranit z affiliate kanálu, nebo pochopit, že mají vliv náš návrat na reklamu utratit jinde a brát v úvahu, že když se podíváme na celkový prodej a marketing. "Možná někteří obchodníci to. Možná, že někteří obchodníci zabudovat do celkové marketingových výdajů. Ale já si to nemyslím. Myslím, že mnoho obchodníků, opět, je to druh Podívejte se na ty affiliate kanály jako svůj vlastní malý subjekt, který je oddělený od toho, co se děje se zbytkem marketing.

Kellie: Jo, myslím, že alespoň z toho, co jsem dostal zpětnou vazbu od jiných manažerů, mnohokrát, že statisticky pohledu na program a radioměřicí: oscilografy na výkon nebo na tom, jak úspěšný affiliate kanálu bylo, je tolik pozornosti, je Jen kladen na tržby nebo objem programu, a ne hledat hlouběji do statistiky o tom, co se vlastně děje.

Angel: No, jistě. Myslím, že je to částečně proto, že ...

Kellie: ... Podíváme-li to možné pořizovací zákazníků jsou ROS, ROI z kanálu sám což je pro mě více to platí pro měření statistik, co se opravdu děje ve affiliate kanálu.

Angel: No, jistě, ale myslím si, že někteří obchodníci jsou prostě jen obavy o podíl na trhu. Pokud jsou jen obavy o podíl na trhu, jdou za méně obávají o síle své dolarové kde kolik stojí získání zákazníka. Ale naše boty, mnoho dalších zdravých obchodníci se obávají o tom, kde návrat ad strávit pochází.

Myslím, že je důležité pochopit, že affiliate kanál bude dopad jiných kampaní. Jeden, je dobré pochopit, že protože pak, pokud jste skutečně pochopili, že můžete použít tyto znalosti, které jim pomohou zlepšit tyto jiných kampaní. Protože pak, opravdu víte, kde jsou vaši zákazníci přicházejí, co je affiliate přinesl je, jaký typ affiliate to bylo. Podívejte se, vím, trochu informací o vašich zákazníků, a pak můžete hovořit s nimi lépe.

Ale v tomto druhu případě kanálu zablácený a ne čistý, protože různých hráčů, které jste umožňující tam pomocí taktiky, které nejsou nejlepší pro kanál. Jakmile se to děje, je, že vaše reklama návrat na reklamu utratit snižuje. Takže, místo abyste dostali, víte, $ 10 zpět za každý dolar, který strávíte, teď jsi jen dostat 3 dolary nebo $ 4 zpět, a to je obrovský hit, pokud se podíváte na to za těchto podmínek spíše než "No, to je moje celkové příjmy, a to je můj celkový podíl na trhu v affiliate kanálu, a to je vše, co jsem měla záleží. "

Kellie: And that really was a turning point, I think, for you, with Onlineshoes management really understanding what you were wanting and trying to achieve with the changes that you were making in the channel, wasn't it?

Angel: Well, sure. It was a turning point…

Kellie: When they saw the hard proof of the impact that it was having on your other channels and what it was actually costing them to have certain players within the affiliate channel.

Angel: Yeah. I mean, it was an absolute turning point, especially not only in the cost factor, but again, in our situation, because of the relationships with the different vendors or brands. Again, we wanted to keep those relationships, and you don't want to lose one of those relationships. Losing one of those relationships is more impactful than almost anything else. When you combine those two, it was a definite turning point.

But I think that it would've been a less valid turning point that, if the next December, we didn't have that growth. But I think it was really validated in December of 2006, when suddenly we have the growth, even with keeping the channel clean. I think that that gave more validity to all the changes and work we did.

Kellie: Jo. Řekl jste, že jste měl růst, a to i vedení kanálu v čistotě. Opět platí, že mnoho z těchto poboček může generovat několik velmi dobrých čísel, pokud je to opět příjmy a objem do kanálu a znovu se prodeje ukazují některé velmi pěkné povrchní statistiky, které vám může ukázat někdo v managementu, že manažer může ukázat někdo v managementu.

Vím, že tam jsou manažeři tam, nebo tam jsou OPM je tam venku, kteří skutečně aktivně hledají tyto typy poboček vytvářet tyto druhy statistik pro ně, ne? Chcete-li ukázat, co považuji nafouknutý růst nebo hodnotu kanálu, tím, že tihle kluci palců

Znám pár OPM, které se aktivně na trhu ... Oni mají zvláštní vztahy s těmito kluky. Jedná se o jejich top poboček, jejich super poboček, že mohou okamžitě přinést pro obchodníka. Ukázali jim dolar příjmy, které mohou přinést, a to přesto fantastické pro obchodníka vidět některé z těchto čísel.

Ale proč shouldn'ta manager, kdy se mohou ukázat ty typy čísel, které obchodník velmi šťastná ... nebo bych řekl ne zcela vzdělaný kupec, možná ... velmi spokojeni s těmito čísly, proč by manager obtěžovat, aby to všechno navíc úsilí, aby si program, který je čistý?

Angel: Jděte do toho. Promiňte.

Kellie: To have affiliate partners that don't engage in these types of activities that can bring high volume and high numbers actually very quickly into a program, perhaps.

Angel: Well, I always keep in my head that, to some extent, Kellie, we're in marketing and marketing can be a lot about blind faith and imaginary numbers. [laughs] And depending on how you're spinning numbers, you can put together stuff, or somebody in a corporation puts together some numbers, and then other people buy off on it, and suddenly, you've got this imaginary streak based on numbers that were not accurate in the first place. Then the numbers kind of kept around because people were worried about it. That's how you get Enron.

Kellie: Oh…

Angel: Not to compare this to Enron, but that's how you get those kind of things.

Kellie: It's the one thing that I took away from back in my other life, when I had to suffer through two college courses of statistics when I was in medical school, was that you can make numbers look or mean almost anything that you want to. That's why they have the field of statistics out there is to be able to draw accurate and valid conclusions from the numbers that you're seeing and from the data that you're seeing. Because you really can make numbers look any way that you want them to and mean anything that you want them to.

Angel: Well, I think that your motivation as an affiliate manager, I think comes from the fact that if you're wanting year over year growth that's meaningful, that if you just play with… let's say you just play with those affiliates that are using those kind of practices and throwing up big numbers… well, two things happen; One, the channels are getting very expensive because over time… because other affiliates will not work with you.

Over time your diversity in channel starts to shrink, and you start paying out more and more to the segment, and this affiliate that's really not bringing you 100% new customers and are bringing you only 30% new customers and 70% customers that you already have, but you're crediting them for a double.

A tak, kanál dlouhodobý ... krátkodobý, může náhle vypadat skvěle, dlouhodobý bude začít se drahé pro vás, zvláště pokud se snažíte o dosažení určité výše růstu, protože to, co se děje, aby nakonec se děje je, že proto, že jste ředění své znalosti, kde se vaše skutečné zákazníci přicházejí z Nebudete mít možnost pak jít a říct: "No, musím jít a najít sám sebe více poboček, které jsou podobné těmto ty nebo ji uvede v úspěšném reálná čísla. "

Vzhledem k tomu, co se děje, je stejně jako v situaci Ebates, budeš chodit s jinými lidmi, jako je Ebates, které mají downloadables jako TopRebates, například. No, najednou TopRebates a Ebates se soutěží o stejné duplicitní zákazníka. Takže, pokud TopRebates a a Ebates se soutěží o stejné duplicitní zákazníkovi, že 70% kopií, které byly jen tam na svých stránkách a jen vám posílali 30% nové dopravy, tam je opravdu nového zákazníka.

Opět začnete omezovat množství reálný růst, zatímco v roce, pokud máte co do činění se. Například, máme velmi úspěšný vztah s affiliate název SheFinds, a oni byli affiliate, které dříve dělají B3 v čase a oni nejsou registrovány u nás, tam byl žádná aktivita s víte, pár věcí se snažili, ale tam to není moc odpověď. I systematicky začít pracovat s nimi, částečně proto, že jsem si všiml, že jejich konverze byla přesně tam, kde jsem chtěl být, pokud jde o ... a oni posíláte není moc provoz, ale konverze byla velmi dobrá.

So, I started to work with them and started to get a bit of branding and voice with their customers and suddenly from nowhere, they started to impact the channel in a very, very positive way. Well, I'll guarantee you that if I had been working with those other players, their impact would have been muddied and instead looking for a new SheFinds who's bringing me real new customers, I'd be looking for a new Ebates who's bringing me, again, 70% duplicate customers that I would have already had through another channel.

I think that the key is, if you want that growth, you need to spend time on making sure that the channel is clean so that way, when you start to look for new media relationships, you know where you want to acquire those customers. I think that's a key to a long-term program.

Kellie: And again, I think you're right there, that the mind set of long-term versus short-term. Sometimes with long-term corporations, they tend to think especially public corporations, they tend to think short-term because I think quarterly reports to their stockholders and along those lines. But as they're establishing they're long-term relationships with affiliates, that are going to be all bringing you true value to your program, and having those and because those affiliates, statistics aren't muddied down by these other guys that you know where there's true value of those affiliates or to you.

Angel: Right and not only the true value but to have a better understanding of how to speak to those customers and I think that the other factor is.

Kellie: When I say true value, is that, you have a better statistical analysis of those affiliates, like you said, you went to Shoefinds, and started working with them directly, but when you have muddy statistics, it's hard for you to be able to accurately say if an affiliate isn't performing as well as they could for you, why aren't they?

Angel: Right.

Kellie: When somebody, other players, are diverting that affiliates traffic into their own, then you can't make those judgments, because it's difficult enough as it is sometimes to figure out why somebody isn't converting, or they're not performing as well, and they expect to win the pictures clear, that's just the nature of online, 'cause we can't fit behind every end user to see exactly what they're doing, right?

But we have limited amount of data that we can try to draw conclusions from, and when you don't have accurate data to make those conclusions, it's even harder. To be able to establish those long term relationships with affiliates that are going to be working with you, potentially, for years down the road.

Angel: Right, and I think sometimes people, in that rush as affiliate manager to show that growth, I think sometimes you kind of forget what attracts then to marketing, which is that diversity in the channel is really, you want in a marketing program, because the less diverse it is, the more expensive those segments become.

Not only more expensive those segments become, but the larger segment of customers that you're missing out on because you don't know where they are or who they are and how to contact them. I think that once one of the really great things about the affiliate channel is that if you reach out to your affiliates, that often, they themselves are one, in the business to make money, so they're very entrepreneurial about how they contact those customers and segments.

It can react in ways that you, as a big corporation, as a merchant, as somebody who is worried about your distribution channels, cannot react to finding those customers, and so you really need to keep that channel clean in order to facilitate the conversations, again, with affiliates like SheFinds, for example.

Kellie: Well, I know, just from a few conversations that I had last month in Vegas with some merchants, these were managers I should say, these were experienced managers that have taken over programs recently in the last couple of months, who moved into new positions, and they are working with programs that have a reputation in the affiliate community with affiliates of wanting quote “dirty programs, ” in other words, they have a lot, a high percentage of these Adware type affiliates, or cookie stuffers, or affiliates that use questionable tactics to generate profit and sales to the merchant in their program.

These programs have a long history of that over years time, and these managers have stepped into the positions now and more merchants are now beginning to truly understand what is really going on with some of these tactics, and they're kind of over a barrel now, because, when you came and the way you approached cleaning your program, and maybe Onlineshoes wasn't as known out there, or their brand wasn't as known or as visible as some other programs and other merchants in general, and you said, “Hey, what can we do?”

You would show a concerted effort and you were able to, as you cleaned up and proved yourself to affiliates, you were able to bring in some true value ad affiliates into your program, which you definitely need. Now these merchants are, because of the way the program was run in the past, they're kind of over a barrel now because a large percentage of their affiliates, or these “questionable players”, and true value affiliates either promote them in a link, or don't want to work with them at all.

So now, they came to me and said, “What can we do? We terminated all these guys, we pretty much just lost all of our revenue for our program, but nobody wants to work with us. The affiliates that we really want now, nobody will even want to touch our program or really want to put much effort into promoting us. So, what can we do?” They've kind of boxed themselves into a corner now. Their program has become very reliant on these other affiliates.

Angel: Right, and I think that's unfortunate, because I think that has to do with lack of, I guess will, whether on the part of the networks or the merchants to a lot for other means of tracking or other technology to work with those affiliates. I think a big part is the “clean affiliates” are not going to want to work with you because you are not interested in preserving your agreement with them. If they feel that you are not interested in preserving your agreement with them and they feel that you are not interested in crediting them for the correct sales….

I saw a recent thread where a merchant said to an affiliate “Hey, I saw this other affiliate stealing from you and they got credit for that theft. I went ahead and terminated working with them and maybe now next time you'll get better credit for the customer you sent me.” My first thought was, “Well, if you as the merchant knew that this was the affiliate that sent you the right customer, why even go through that process and tell them 'Well, maybe next time you'll have better conversion with me and I'll give you more commission?' You knew who the right affiliate was that sent you the customer. That should be the person that is credited with the sale.”

I think it's kind of that lack of, not lazie-faire, spacing on the term, it's that lack of “Oh well we don't have to honor this agreement until next time” attitude that I think really hampers things. Because ultimately this is a relationship, you're not going to…

Kellie: Well, there is a business relationship.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: Affiliates, they're getting paid by performance only. If the customer that they sent to you makes a purchase, that's the only time they are going to get paid. It's not like publishers who just have to have the banner load and they get compensated for it, right? So it is more critical to them that the agreement, the actual legal contract that they have established with the merchant is honored.

Affiliates take that very seriously, especially as affiliate marketing becomes more competitive in general. There's more programs out there, there's more affiliates out there. It's even more critical to a lot of affiliates that they actually get paid for what the merchant told them they were going to be paid for. I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation that your legal agreement with your merchant is honored, from the affiliates perspective.

Angel: Right, and I think that, again, there's lots of reasons for you as a merchant to want to do that. I think that, again, that one of the problems is that…

Kellie: Outside of, it is a true legally binding agreement, but…

Angel: Right, just outside of that.

Kellie: Outside that tiny little fact. [laughs]

Angel: Right, [laughs] well as long as you know… I think again, merchants also look and then say well CJ or Linkshare, or Performics or whichever the network is, has allowed these super-affiliates in and I know all the small folks complain about them stealing, but obviously they can't be stealing because these networks have let them in. I think that from my experience with Linkshare…

Linkshare has done really well by us and has helped us through a lot of things, but it's my due diligence as Affiliate Manager to look and to make sure that my affiliates are playing by the rules of my terms and conditions with that affiliate. As Affiliate Manager I shouldn't expect the network to do all my work for me. I think that often times, merchants do that, then affiliates blame the networks. Really, LinkShare overall has treated us very, very well.

Kellie: Ultimately, ultimately, it is the merchant's responsibility.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: As a merchant or as a business person, in general I'm not going to let somebody else's internal policies dictate to me how my business is run, or how I want to conduct my businesses, or who I want to have partnerships with or do business with. So although a network may allow certain affiliates into their network, still it's ultimately the merchant's responsibility to say is this particular affiliate's business model what we want for our own business and our own business model.

Is it a match or is it not? I think it's, I hate to say it, but, to me in a sense it's a merchant or a manager who's being somewhat lazy when they fall back on, “Yeah, well, you know the network said.” Because they're still within the network, the network has said that they're OK.

Angel: Right, right. I mean at least be…

Kellie: Merchants don't accept affiliates for a lot of different reasons, outside that they use Adware, because they don't meet certain criteria for that particular merchant.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: So, to fall back on that I think it's somewhat of a cop out on the merchant. You know?

Angel: Right and at least and really if you're going to as a merchant, if you sat down with your marketing department and said, “OK, despite XY and Z, I'm still going to work with these affiliates that are doing some of the more shady practices.” At least be honest with yourself and say, “I'm going to do this and I know they're going to double dip. I know my actual return on ad spend is actually going to go down, but I'm OK with it because I'm just out for market share.”

Then beyond that, be honest with your other affiliates and say, “Hey, yeah, we are working with these people.” You have two fold choices there. You can say, “We are working with these people and if you don't want to work with us, 'Too bad'.” Or you could do the other step of due diligence, which I think a lot of merchants are even more lazy on, “Hey, you know there are other methodologies that I can choose to work with these affiliates on.

I know that they're going to ultimately impact negatively my return on ad spend, but I'm going to work with them and still not cheat my clean affiliates of their commission, by choosing other methods of tracking.” And they don't.

I know it causes technical problems and I know there's legitimate business costs there, but I think it's just lazy to say “You know, well we're going to work with these affiliates that are double dipping and are stealing your commissions and it's either work with us or not, 'Too bad'.”

Kellie: Yah, there's technical costs involved, but there are technical costs in doing that type of alternate tracking. It has definitely gone down over the years. I know merchants who do it on the QT anyway. They have their own internal tracking set up, affiliate tracking set up, very quietly on the side that they use for their special, very special super affiliates. They run them on that instead of through the network.

Angel: Well, sure, I mean right…

Kellie: That happens all the time. I mean, that happens and I don't care what networks may have exclusivity clauses and the networks know what happens.

Angel: Well, I mean after…

Kellie: That to me that's somewhat of a cop out too, because it's easy enough. I mean how much is a direct track license now?

Angel: Right.

Kellie: I think it's like $5000.

Angel: And after we moved “Shop at Home Select” out of the program, we got contacted several times by them saying, “Hey, I know you moved us out of the program. You know and I know you're with either BeFree or LinkShare. Why don't you come and work with us directly? And that way we want to pass through your affiliate channel and we can show you this value ad then.” If we had chosen to do so, we could've done it offline through the network, you know I mean outside the network. Except for the fact that, again, 70% or 60%… I'm just making up that number…

Kellie: Whatever.

Angel: A large percentage of their traffic is going to be duplicate traffic. Is going to actually impact negatively the return on the ads on my other channels. I'm just going to accept that. Because I want the market share and the market share is more important to me.

Kellie: That's what “Shop at Home Select” is. Shop at Home Select has bought themselves a license for direct track. They have their own network… tracking network. They can pull in merchants from outside of the networks and they actually track them themselves. Right?

Angel: Right.

Kellie: If an affiliate can do that then a merchant can definitely do that. That's what they had when they were terminated from CJ. They lost such a huge portion of their merchant base that they provide to their end users, in one swift move, that they really started focusing on that.

When I look at their offerings now, their relationships with “Shop at Home Select”. They still have link share and performance merchants on there. Now CJ has let them back in. But even since CJ has let them back in, the bulk of their relationships now, or through CPA Networks, may only have four or five per CPA merchants that they are promoting per CPA Network.

A lot of internal tracking, independent programs in their own tracking. A lot of that has to do with merchants going outside their normal networks. Even on the CPA Networks, the merchants whose primary program is on one of the other three major networks out there.

Angel: Right. I haven't followed that money trail… super Adware affiliate to CPA Network. My guess is if you are a merchant and you are in a long term relationship there with that negative affiliate. What's going to end up happening again is that child is going to become really, really expensive because there has to be an incentive if you are…

Kellie: I understand why they are certain of these Adware players. Use “Shop at Home Select” for example. I understand why there are certain merchants that want that relationship even though they know what it is costing them through the affiliate channels.

Angel: Sure.

Kellie: That is because “Shop at Home Select” is a cataloger. That's how they started and they are huge in that. So your catalog type merchant, when they get their foot in the door with “Shop at Home Select” through the affiliate program, they are also being promoted on the catalog side of things. That is where they are seeing their true value. As their marketing and advertising value with “Shop at Home Select” isn't necessarily through the affiliate channel but it's on the catalog end of Shop at Home's business.

Angel: One of the things that makes me frustrated, because the way you just pointed out, there is actual value there. It would just take a certain amount of due diligence from the merchant and a certain amount of due diligence from the affiliate, “Shop at Home Select, ” in this case. A certain amount of due diligence from the network, or you can take it off site, just to make the child clean.

Stop the double dipping. Stop taking away from other affiliates. It is a matter of people not doing that because… again, they are seeing this, as the way to quick growth without having to implement that extra due diligence. Which again…

Kellie: I don't know…it is actually is now, with the way technology has advanced, to do that due diligence. So, they are sacrificing the value of their “clean affiliates”, that they could also be deriving, if they took that of and made sure in real life, “Hey, we are just going to pay on both of it.” They're paying them on the double dip anyway.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: So if the overall value for “Shop at Home Select” when they factor in the catalog end of the business, still makes it worth… still gives them an “oral eye”, that they are happy with, overall. Why sacrifice your true value ad affiliates?

Angel: Well it's funny I…

Kellie: For that overall “oral eye” that you are looking at for “Shop at Home Select” you promised something like that.

Angel: In San Francisco, right before our affiliate summit, I was at LinkShare Symposium and I got approached by an affiliate. They were a super affiliate and they were the ones that are in the Gray Area and they said, “You know, look we're no longer on your program. We'd like to be back in your program, what can we can we do to get back in your program?” And my sentiment was, “Well, make it to that what you're downloadable doesn't overwrite the affiliate cookies of the affiliate that you sent me the clean traffic.”

They stopped and looked at me, and they said they know all about talking to their engineer. I have not had a phone call from them.

Kellie: Right.

Angel: And it's a simple matter of, again, when people first created the technology, let's grab as much cash as possible and rake it in, and not worry about what contract we're breaking, what agreement we're breaking, who we're stepping on, because the easiest route for me to be instead of, again, doing the diligence of building it out in an ethical profitable manner. It still doesn't make any sense to me.

Kellie: Well, you know again, I learned from way back when some of these guys first came on to the scene. Comments that were being made behind the scenes by the owners of these companies and it was basically is like, “We're just going to make as much money as we can, as quickly as we can and when all falls apart, we're just going to take out all the money we made and move on to something else.” Things really didn't pan out that way.

When you go to some of these guys and you say, “Look, I'll let you in our program but just opt us out in your Adware. We just want traffic coming in for your website, and see what kind of response most merchants were going to get from those affiliates.” They're going to be told, “No, we can't do it.” They can do it but they won't do it. To me that indicates how reliant they have become on that Adware segment of their revenues within their own business model, and things are much more competitive now overall for affiliates and between Adware affiliates.

Angel: Sure, which is sad because if they're both competing for that imaginary 70% of duplicate…

Kellie: Oh, I've watched applications go to war on end-user's computer. I've installed more than one and watched the battle that they do with each other, on the end-users for control of the browser. But, some of these companies wound up getting VC money and things like that and they couldn't just walk away from it then. So, now they're forced to try to maintain and compete within the market place, and I think that they're going to have to find a balance.

Angel: Which also means to me that the amount of legitimate new customers that they're bringing in, if they're that dependent on their applications that the amount of new customers… legitimate new customers they're bringing in to their side because of whatever value ad, that they're offering to their customers is shrinking because of the amount of competition.

Kellie: Well, I think they're going to…

Angel: And so…

Kellie: They're going to have to be true value ads like everybody else. The days of just getting an application on a computer, no matter by hook or crook or however you can do it, that's dwindling. There's lawsuits happening over, there's government intervention coming into those tactics and I think these companies are going to have to really look at how their applications are behaving and look at their overall business model of what value they're actually bringing to their own end-users.

But they clearly do have a base of consumers themselves and it's not just that they got their application installed by bundling or through different technology exploits to get their software on the computer. They have a legitimate base. Merchants are becoming more educated.

Before, there really was almost complete lack of education on merchant support, of what was really going on and how the traffic themselves were being generated. More and more merchants are becoming educated to becoming concerned about it, and as you said, the channel has become more expensive for them and now they're looking at as to why. These companies are having to justify themselves to merchants or they are being terminated.

Angel: Sure.

Kellie: So I think they are going to have to look at their own business models and continue to make adjustments along more long term… solid foundations of what their own business models are themselves.

Angel: Sure, and I think that is not also not just being… Truly, I think a merchant is looking at it and the affiliate keeps coming back to, and these affiliates are coming back to “Well, we are going to need more money to keep you on our tool bar, or you need to be this more competitive, or you need to put out these coupons and offers because they are not in”, and merchants, even after that initial short term boost the merchant going to start to look at it and go, “Well forget about the return that's been. What's my gross profit after working with all these?”

That is going to start to minimize and they are going to start to say, “Well I just can't keep increasing throwing money after money to participate in something where I'm not 100 percent sure that it's providing me new customers.” I can just see that being… just increasing as the competition increases.

Kellie: Well one of the things that I have affiliates often ask me is they will say that “Contact your merchant and let them know what we have provided improved documentation. We showed them how their own traffic is being cannibalized by these guys, ” and the merchants continue to partner with them. The affiliates just don't get that, and they say, they ask me “Why would a merchant continue to partner with these guys, when they see and they have been shown what is happening.” Do you have any thoughts on why some merchants or managers take that approach?

Angel: Well, I think that sometimes that approach is taken because… sometimes a company is not always driven by return that spend, again, sometimes they are driven by simply a market share factor. So you find yourself as an affiliate manager making buys through their affiliate channel, and starting relationships with affiliates that you normally would never ever do. Only because you are not necessarily interested about that qualified traffic, you are interested in getting as much placement out there on the net as possible and…..

Kellie: I have to say, and maybe you can share in your own experience talking with other merchants and managers, but I know that from companies that take that approach, especially when the manager is, well probably for OPN.'s too, but for in house manager, they have a lot of pressure on them by there supervisors and their bosses to generate certain numbers along those lines, and they can be some hard numbers to hit.

Angel: Well, I always call it the Google addiction. Where your corporate CO comes up to you and says, “Why spend this amount of money in the affiliate channel, when I know I can get an absolute return on my investment in Google?” I think, there is that kind of pressure, because in other channels like Google, like shopping comparison portals, like the email channel, you have a far more direct control of the creative, of the customer relationship, and that customer relationship is based solely upon your brand. In the affiliate channel you are kind of handing off the, it's like passing the baton, where the affiliate really is in control of the customer relationship portion.

If they're doing their business right, they're sending you a qualified customer that's going to convert for you, but that process is not as clean and instantaneous as email or Google or BizRate, and so, suddenly, you have a lot more pressure on you as an affiliate manager to perform the way those other channels are performing. In one of my interviews with that at an affiliate summit, WebMasterE asked me about what growth, on, and she's expecting in 2007, and really they expect 300%, where 300% in any channel is difficult and the affiliate channels is really difficult because, again, you don't have direct control about where that affiliate is going to put your links.

You often don't know, you hope the affiliate is again, under due diligence and sending you qualified traffic, traffic that makes sense for you, you hope that the offers you put out in the channel really do convert and they don't negatively affect your gross profit, and there's a lot of stuff that you want that removed from, so that pressure to have those instantaneously results is there, and “Oh, eBates can be my savior because I'm going to throw them on there, and they're going to generate 70,000 in one month for me, 170,000 even,” and…

Kellie: Even when, an affiliate channel is being put up there compared with, you have again, email channel and search channel, but I can tell you, from my own work and what I do, those channels are also bringing in some of those really good numbers through Adware partners.

Angel: Sure.

Kellie: And I think that's a misconception about a lot of affiliates that these are playing primarily in probably by merchants, too, in the affiliate channel and they're not anymore, they haven't been for a good while. When you start looking at contextual applications and some of the really rogue type pop-up Adware applications, they're all over email, and pay-per-click like you wouldn't believe, probably not, sometimes more so than actually operating within the affiliate marketing channel themselves.

So those channels are having really inflated numbers driven into their channels also, that the affiliate channels are being compared to, and some of those guys, really rogue applications, I mean, they pop off… I have tested applications that I'm not even doing anything at the computer, I just boot it up and I leave it, and I'll come back 30 minutes later, and I'll literally have 30 pop-up windows on the computer. A lot of times those will be, they will be links that are tagged, I can tell they are tagged is designing, and they'll be click fraud, they'll be pay-per-click click fraud…

Angel: Yeah, I think that click fraud, there's definitely other issues in other channels, but I think that, as a merchant, I can make more meaningful adjustments to what's going on in my campaigns immediately in other channels where you cannot in an affiliate channel. Because you're handing off the creative, and so merchants, whether or not they're concerned about click frauds, which they should be, or whether or not they're concerned about those other…

Kellie: What my point was just being that some of that really large growth that you see sometimes in other channels oftentimes inflated too, though.

Angel: Absolutely.

Kellie: Then the affiliate channel is being said “Hey, you need to compete with the numbers that we're seeing over here in these other channels, ” which have some, which can have some really inflated statistics going on, some numbers being shown.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: And there seems to be even less awareness of the degree to which that is happening… those numbers being inflated… than there is in the affiliate marketing channel, which was really just my only point on that one.

Overall, how much impact do you think that affiliates who are using Adware are having on ROAS for a merchant… and I know that's going to vary from merchant to merchant, definitely.

Angel: Sure. I think that for us, specifically during the cleaning process in 2005, it seemed to… Whereas our multiplier was $11 back on every dollar we spent out, prior to us kind of doing that cleaning, we saw a several dollar drop. If I remember right, it was a $3 drop on what the multiplier really would have been, had we factored in that impact on return on ad spending.

That's going to vary heavily, and I think that some of those numbers for us are based on estimates based on the fact that… some of the actual tracking we didn't have on a one-to-one basis, but that is significant. Especially if you're in a budget-tight situation. You're trying to budget where… to which channel are you going to give money as a merchant?

Luckily we choose… we really have a strong internal dollar, and we can be very creative with our campaigns, and very aggressive with our campaigns, but I think that for small merchants especially, if you're in a tight budget situation, you're trying to decide where you're going to put that dollar. If suddenly what you thought was a home run turns out to only be a second base hit, as far as what the channel is doing, you start to question whether or not you want to throw more money in there because of that impact. So, I think that's a pretty significant impact, when you look at it… knocking things down by that many points on your multiplier.

Kellie: I think merchants who do their shares of their traffic that come through their different channels… That's going to vary from merchant to merchant also, but you have a merchant that's deriving a lot of their traffic, or a high percentage of their traffic, from their own pay-per-click campaigns… I think they're going to be impacted a whole lot more, especially if they're dropping a whole lot of money on first tier search engines, where the clicks are more expensive to begin with. I've consulted with merchants where that was their situation, and that was their concern.

Angel: Right. I think that if we had, at the time that I came onboard, if the search channel had been actually more active, and we had extensively used those players because of how large and robust our search segmentation is, that that impact would've been much bigger. I think it wasn'ta catastrophic hit, because, again at that time, the affiliate channel itself was very… again, auto-pilot. But… I mean, it could've been very impactful.

So to me, in a company that's, on all issues, it's very return-on-ad-spend driven… a $3 drop in your multipliers is huge. So even just in that channel, it's impactful, and then again, if you look at the potential of how much more impactful it could've been, and again, beyond return on ad spending, the effect it could've had on our vendor relationships. It can be very impactful on your channel.

Kellie: I think that because that's how you approach looking it is the impact on your return on ad spend overall. I have a lot of merchants that come to me and they say, “We terminated X parasite from our program, because we were getting all this feedback and flack from our other affiliates, so we terminated them. We looked in the affiliate channel for those numbers to be made up… and it didn't happen. So we let them back in.”

Angel: Right.

Kellie: And I said, “You didn't look the right way. Right?” But what they hear so much on the forums and from other affiliates… because it's from the affiliate perspective, and it's what they're concerned about of course… is their own links being overwritten and being re-directed to the Adware affiliate. The merchants never looked outside of their affiliate channel. I'm like, “I'm looking at the guys that you were partnered with.

Those players are somewhat compliant, so there's a portion of other affiliate traffic that they won't re-direct on, depending on how the other affiliates are coding their links and things like that. So “No, you didn't look in the right place. You didn't look in your other channels, you looked just within your affiliate channel. So if that affiliate was generating $X in sales for you, and you expected to see all $X sales re-surface within your affiliate channel… I could've told you beforehand that wasn't going to happen!”

Angel: Right, and I think that's also back to the mentality that the search channel should be kind of an automated thing, where if I take out the bad affiliates, boom, the next month my good affiliate volume should go up. It's not that way.

Kellie: But some of the sense I think is still a lack of education out there for merchants, because they weren't seeing that it wasn't only other affiliates' traffic that was being re-directed. The Adware affiliate they terminated wasn't just re-directing or overwriting other affiliates… because that's what they hear from affiliates, and that was all they were hearing from affiliates, is that my links were being overwritten right?

So they weren't looking at their other traffic sources were being re-directed on to that Adware affiliate. It's a very myopic view. I think sometimes it is truly just a lack of understanding on their part, or the managers taking the time to really understand the behaviors and what's really going on with some of the Adware affiliates out there.

Angel: Yeah. Your affiliate channel is not your only little entity, and if you have an Adware affiliate in your affiliate channel, it's going to impact other channels. If you're not looking at that, like “OK, I removed them, ” and I'm looking back again at the affiliate channel, you're going to miss not only the true impact of that Adware affiliate. But what you are also not going to do is take the time in your affiliate channel to reconnect with the affiliates that were sending you the good traffic.

They've probably stopped sending you good traffic, or a limited the amount of traffic they're sending you, because you're not crediting them with the right sales. So, that relationship does take time to rebuild, and again… obviously, 110% growth at the end of December of 2006 to 2005, those relationships can be rebuilt…

Kellie: It's become a trust issue, with your other affiliates. Trust is… the Internet is instantaneous, and I think a lot of times, we want to see everything instantaneous related to the Internet…and it's not. Those relationships do take time to rebuild, and for other affiliates to have their confidence and their trust restored in a merchant.

I know that you spent a lot of time out there, connecting and communicating with your affiliates to let them know…. “Hey, this isn't just some marketing spin that I'm throwing your way. This is something that we're truly doing.” You had to prove yourself to affiliates, and there's probably some affiliates you're still proving yourself to.

Angel: Sure, but I think ultimately it wasn't simply because we were trying to be ethical.

Kellie: You were doing a lot of other things apart from it…

Angel: Sure, but to me it also makes absolute business sense. I mean, an affiliate is not going to promote you… especially a clean affiliate… if you are not converting for them. So, if you don't look like you're converting to them because you're really giving the credit to the not clean affiliate, then of course they're going to stop promoting.

Kellie: And not just in conversion, it's not just from legit to parasite, if you're not converting for…I mean, you can be a clean merchant, if you're not converting.

Angel: Sure.

Kellie: There's where the other issues that you are addressing. You know, with developing tools and developing your landing pages and your creatives and things to improve your overall conversions. Once the consumer landed on your own Onlineshoes but definitely it's not going to help your conversion for your other affiliate if you have these other parasitic type affiliate within your program.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: No way is it going to improve your conversions for your other affiliates.

Angel: No.

Kellie: I've had more than one manager call me or contact in a state of panic, because they had one affiliate get into in their program and they're on a network that reports EPC, and this one affiliate sent them just junk traffic to Adware and tanked, completely tanked their EPC in a day's time.

Angel: Right.

Kellie: And affiliates were like running from them like crazy just based off of that tanked EPC. They went from showing great numbers to just really, really poor because they got tens of thousands of clicks from one affiliate that was just garbage through Adware.

Angel: You know, ultimately to me, aside from my own ethical beliefs, when it comes to Adware, to me, not playing with it is a business decision. The business decision to me is about having the true strength on the dollar and having the ability to grow a clean channel where you understand where your customers are coming from. To me, that's a business decision that's even beyond, again, this is not on personal ethical feeling is about, I just don't want to work with these scumbags but…

Kellie: Well, I think that I always try to make the discussions on the business aspects because out here, the business aspects speak for themselves. I think it is a business decision. Ethics are very near and dear to me, but I think this issue stand on the business and the business side of things by themselves, outside of ethics in a lot of cases. When you start really looking at the true numbers and the true value, I just don't comprehend as a merchant, I want something for my advertising dollars.

Angel: OK.

Kellie: Something is not paying the advertising dollars for visitor that I already have on my website. To me, that just makes no business sense whatsoever to do that. Why pay for something that I already have?

Angel: Well, not only that but why… the last thing you really want on a big website is to confuse or get your customers off track. To me, you want that bread crumbs to start from the moment that they hit your website to be the surest possible to get to what they need from you as a merchant. To me, an interstitial page that has no value ad and suddenly pops up and just shows them the same merit that they would have see in the first place is completely useless to you as a merchant and is a horrible customer strength.

Kellie: Well, I know that some of the applications that I test and some of the applications that I'm more concerned about, actually from the end-user's experience, there's no indication that, that application is even on there. They don't do any pop up, they refresh the browser in the same browser window, that can be the same exact place to end user were that, already on the merchant site. They just refreshed with their affiliate link.

There's some very crafty guys out there developing technology, and they're getting it styled in very stealth, crafty methods on end users' computers, and it really goes undetected. They're using very fraudulent methods to hide the traffic patterns from the networks and merchants.

Those are the types of affiliates that are really a concern, to me, more so than something that you see that's very obvious, that you or the end user get a pop-up window saying, “You're earning X number of rebates right now.” So I think there's just a lot of considerations for merchants.

Angel: One, I think you said something very key there, which is that they are very crafty and they are evolving. As a merchant and as an AM, you need to do your due diligence, in order to understand what's happening in the space, because if you don't, those players are going to come back in.

That's why, one of the things that always kind of gets to me is when people are like, “Our program's 100 percent clean, ” I'm always worry, when somebody says that, that they've stopped checking their program and adapting their program to the newest tactics that are out there. I think that that is, again, another level of dangerous complacency out there.

Kellie: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I tell everybody that 100 clean or parasite-free or whatever you want to call it is a myth. What you can have, are networks to merchants who do due diligence and work really hard to try to achieve that state. But having that, it's impossible. That just doesn't happen.

And that type of complacency, or that type of false sense of security, sometimes, on a merchant's part, they say, “Because I'm partnered with this particular network, or I have an in-house program.” I never understood that, the merchants who say they're running their own in-house program, so they're parasite-free. I never understood why they would assume that, based just off of that fact.

But that always concerned me, because, to me, I wonder if they're monitoring their program as closely as they should be. I think that there are a lot of those guys who really do want to have that state in their program, and they're very opposed to questionable tactics in their program, but I get concerned that there's probably things going on in their program that they're totally unaware of.

Angel: Right. I think, any day, I'd rather be actively anti-parasite than throw up “100% free” and then forget about it.

Kellie: Yeah, because that's probably going to come back and bite you in the butt.

Angel: Right. You want to be… You do need to…

Kellie: Because somebody's going to find what's in your program eventually. It's going to come out eventually, one way or another, most likely.

Angel: Absolutely.

Kellie: Well, I really do appreciate you coming on with us today…

Angel: My pleasure, Kellie.

Kellie: Sharing your perspectives with us…

Angel: I have to say that I'm drinking as we've been talking. I've been drinking your coffee that you sent me, from New Orleans . I'm going to send you some coffee back, because we need to give you some Seattle coffee, just to give you a taste of the real coffee. [laughs]

Kellie: Oh, so our coffee isn't real, huh?

Angel: I'm just saying that, again, you want to diversify your overall coffee availability and flavors. [laughs]

Kellie: Yes, I actually have about five different kinds of coffee in my cupboard right now. [laughs]

Angel: [laughs] That's why we get along so well.

Kellie: Not all of them are New Orleans , not all I have. There's a variety in coffee up there, I have, yes. [laughs] We're from different…

Angel: Well, I appreciate you having me on your show.

Kellie: Thank you very much. I hope that we can have you back discussing some other issues, because I think you really have done quite a bit with the online shoe program.

Angel: I'd be my pleasure.

Kellie: All right. Thanks a lot.

Angel: Thank you.

Kellie: And I'd like to thank everybody for tuning in and listening. We'll be having more shows in the near future.